Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

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Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:41 am

Someone told me that DAoC Freeshards are Illegal.
They said Freeshards are an illegally operated version of DAoC.
Is this true?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Warriorperson » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:59 am

For a number of reasons, yes. Rob is probably better equipped to detail the specifics, though.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:12 am

Warriorperson wrote:For a number of reasons, yes. Rob is probably better equipped to detail the specifics, though.



So this website here is Illegal?

http://www.dolserver.net/
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:41 pm

Gocoooo wrote:Someone told me that DAoC Freeshards are Illegal...
Is this true?

They are probably illegal in the United States. It may be different in other countries.

I say "probably" because, as far as I know, there has only been one lawsuit on this issue in the US. The defendant defaulted, the case never went above the district court level, and there may be significant differences between the facts in that case and Dawn of Light, so it may not be a strong precedent.

The case is Blizzard Entertainment vs. Alyson Reeves. Ms. Reeves was operating one or more World of Warcraft server emulators.

The judge found in favor of Blizzard and fined Ms. Reeves 89 million dollars. That's a pretty loud way of saying "you're wrong."

Here's an article from Gamasutra about the lawsuit:

Blizzard Wins 88M Judgment

Here are some of the court papers from the case:

Blizzard's Complaint

Blizzard's Supporting Memo

Judge's Order

Judge's Order on Damages
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:57 pm

Rob wrote:They are probably illegal in the United States. It may be different in other countries....

ok TY
So anyone who is caught playing DAoC Freeshards can get banned from the game? But I talked with someone from the free shard game and they said its not illegal
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:01 pm

Here's a more detailed post that I wrote about Blizzard vs. Reeves a few years ago:

Rob wrote:When people want to know what is lawful and what is not lawful in the US, one of the things they look at is judge's opinions. That's easy to do in this case because as far as I know, there has been only one American lawsuit about freeshards.

That single lawsuit was Blizzard v. Reeves. It was decided in US District Court in California in 2010. Alyson Reeves operated a bunch of World of Warcraft freeshards. Blizzard sued her. The judge decided in favor of Blizzard and awarded them $89 million.

That's eighty-nine million dollars. That's an extremely loud statement that freeshards are unlawful in the United States, at least in the district where that particular court has jurisdiction.

The judge found that the owner of the freeshards (Reeves) was violating the law. He fined the owner, not the users.

The judge gave two main reasons why Reeves's freeshards were unlawful.

First, Blizzard's log-in mechanism normally stops people from loading the complete WoW client into memory unless they have a valid Blizzard account. But Reeves's freeshards allowed people (including Reeves herself) to load the whole client into memory without a valid Blizzard account. Under a US legal precedent, loading a program into memory is considered "copying" for purposes of copyright infringement. Therefore Reeves's freeshards were allowing users (including Reeves herself) to infringe Blizzard's copyright.

Note that "copying" here means running the client. It doesn't mean distributing the client. Players often say that DAOC freeshards don't infringe copyright because they don't distribute the client. Well guess what. Distribution is only one kind of infringement. According to this judge, running an MMO client without a valid account is another kind of infringement. To read more about the judge's reasoning, see the second link below, page 6 starting at line 6.

The judge's second reason was the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA). He quoted the following section of that act:


"No person shall . . . offer to the public, provide, or otherwise
traffic in any technology, product . . . that (A) is primarily
designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title; (B) has only limited commercially
significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title; or (C) is marketed by that person or
another acting in concert with that person with that person’s
knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. "

I think that quotation speaks for itself, and I think it probably applies to DAOC freeshards, but you can read more about the judge's reasoning in the second link below, page 7 starting at line 23.

Blizzard's motion for default judgment, Blizzard v. Reeves (http://mojoware.org/downloads/blizzard- ... ves.24.pdf)

Judge's order, Blizzard v. Reeves (http://mojoware.org/downloads/blizzard- ... ves.31.pdf)
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:13 pm

Rob wrote:Here's a more detailed post that I wrote on this subject a few years ago:

TY for this info. So what could happen to these free shards DAoC then? Anyone who is on them will get banned?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:19 pm

Gocoooo wrote:So what could happen to these free shards DAoC then?

I don't think the game generates enough revenue today to make it worthwhile for EA or Broadsword to hire a lawyer to sue DOL operators, so nothing is going to happen. But if Broadsword came up with the money to hire a lawyer for this purpose, and if they sued DOL operators, and if they won in court, the DOL servers would get shut down and the operators would get fined. Nothing would happen to players because this has nothing to do with players.

Gocoooo wrote:So anyone who is caught playing DAoC Freeshards can get banned from the game?

First of all, Broadsword can ban you for that reason based on the Rules of Conduct (ROC). They don't need the law or courts for that. From the ROC:

DAOC ROC wrote:Players may not use the Dark Age of Camelot services to: ...Play Dark Age of Camelot on any server or service that is not provided or authorized by Mythic Entertainment.

Second, this lawsuit was about a person who operated freeshards. It wasn't about players. If this precedent applies to Dawn of Light, it means that people who own DOL servers are liable to fines. It doesn't apply to players.

Third, Mythic/Broadsword has never terminated anybody's account for this reason and never will terminate anybody's account for this reason because Mythic/Broadsword would lose a huge amount of revenue if it adopted that policy.

Fourth, it's probably impossible for Broadsword to know which customers have played on freeshards. They could subpoena DOL server logs and and/or install logging software (which would probably be illegal in some countries) on customers' computers, but even if they did those things, all they could prove was that the same IP address and/or computer was used for both their servers and DOL servers. They couldn't prove it was the same person.

By the way, the EUALA has a rule against creating or providing freeshards:

DAOC EUALA wrote:You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game Content or the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators.

Incidentally, because Dawn of Light's launcher modifies game.dll, users violate the following provision of the Rules of Conduct:

DAOC ROC wrote:Players may not use the Dark Age of Camelot services to: ...Modify any files that Mythic does not specifically authorize Player to modify. Use of material which is subject to the rights of any person or entity without the express permission of such rights holder is prohibited, and will result in the termination of Player's membership and possible civil and/or criminal liability.


That kind of modification is a violation not only of the ROC, but also the copyright law. When you modify a copyrighted work, you are infringing (violating). You don't necessarily have to make this kind of modification in order to provide a freeshard, but DOL chose to do it this way.

Gocoooo wrote:But I talked with someone from the free shard game and they said its not illegal

Ask them if they've read the court documents in Blizzard vs. Reeves. I bet they will have no idea what you are talking about.

If they haven't read those papers, they cannot have a valid opinion. The only way to have a valid opinion is to have read those papers carefully.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:22 pm

Gocoooo wrote:TY for this info. So what could happen to these free shards DAoC then? Anyone who is on them will get banned?

No, like I just said, this has to do with people who own and operate freeshards. This isn't about players.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:28 pm

Rob wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:TY for this info. So what could happen to these free shards DAoC then? Anyone who is on them will get banned?

No, like I just said, this has to do with people who own and operate freeshards. This isn't about players.


Oh ok So nothing happens to the people that play them?

Ok TY
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:30 pm

Gocoooo wrote:Ok TY

You're welcome and thanks for giving this thread a great title. Makes it easy for people to find the thread later. :)
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Warriorperson » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Gocoooo wrote:Oh ok So nothing happens to the people that play them?

Ok TY


Nothing has happened yet, no. That isn't to say that nothing will happen. You are still opening yourself up to some sort of lawsuit, but the odds of an individual user facing charges are probably negligible.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Warriorperson wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:Oh ok So nothing happens to the people that play them?

Ok TY


Nothing has happened yet, no. That isn't to say that nothing will happen. You are still opening yourself up to some sort of lawsuit, but the odds of an individual user facing charges are probably negligible.



So the link I sent out they could be fined for operating a free shard like that?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Warriorperson wrote:Nothing has happened yet, no. That isn't to say that nothing will happen. You are still opening yourself up to some sort of lawsuit, but the odds of an individual user facing charges are probably negligible.

I think we can say confidently that the chance of Broadsword suing players is zero. It would cost a fortune that they don't have and if they won, the costs of collection would outweigh the receipts. Even worse from their point of view, they would destroy their own business because a huge fraction of their customers have played on freeshards. It makes no sense. Such lawsuits don't happen.

If you can find even one case from any court where a company sued a substantial fraction of its customers, where the number of customers was in the many thousands and the revenue from each one was typically a few hundred dollars, and where the suit wasn't a tactical reponse to a lawsuit started by customers, I'd like to see it.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Gocoooo wrote:So the link I sent out they could be fined for operating a free shard like that?

That could only happen if EA or Broadsword sued Dawn of Light, and they aren't going to do that. Dawn of Light has been around since 2003. If EA or Mythic/Broadsword wanted to sue DOL, they've had twelve years to do it. They never did it. They're not going to suddenly do it now.

It's interesting to note that in the early years of DAOC, Mythic was headed by a lawyer (Mark Jacobs) who didn't hesitate to sue people. Did you know that in the whole history of US jurisprudence, there is only one case where a game company sued a gold seller? Mythic (under Mark Jacobs) was the plaintiff. So Jacobs didn't hesitate to sue. But he never sued DOL. If he didn't do it then, I think it's extremely unlikely that his successors will decide to do it now.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:13 pm

Rob wrote:That could only happen if EA or Broadsword sued Dawn of Light...


Wow TY for the info. Then why did postcount.net say it was Illegal to run DAoC Free shards?

http://www.postcount.net/index.php?pageid=DAoC
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:30 pm

Gocoooo wrote:Wow TY for the info. Then why did postcount.net say it was Illegal to run DAoC Free shards?
http://www.postcount.net/index.php?pageid=DAoC

As I explained above, it probably is illegal to run DAOC freeshards in the US, so why is it mysterious that somebody says so?

By the way, I don't see anything on that page about freeshards. The words "freeshard" and "illegal" and "DOL" and "dawn" don't appear on the page, so I don't know what you're asking about exactly.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:35 pm

Rob wrote:As I explained above, it probably is illegal to run DAOC freeshards in the US, so why is it mysterious that somebody says so?

Oh ok I see
So are they mad that free shards of DAoC are running for people to play for free?
If it does cause a problem to run these DAoC Free Shards why don't Broadsword shut them down?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:56 pm

Gocoooo wrote:So are they mad that free shards of DAoC are running for people to play for free?
If it does cause a problem to run these DAoC Free Shards why don't Broadsword shut them down?

I can't explain EA/Broadsword's reasons because I don't work there and I'm not a mind reader.

We should note that it's very unusual for a game company to go to court to shut down freeshards. As I said above, in the whole history of US gaming, it has only happened a single time. So whatever EA/Broadsword's reasons, they are apparently shared by almost every other game company.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that as a practical matter, it's worth it for the plaintiff to sue. Suing might cost more than it's worth, or the judgment might not be enforceable. For example, suppose EA/Broadsword won but the DOL operators simply moved their websites to overseas servers under pseudonyms. What then?

We have a small clue about Mark Jacob's reasoning because of the following post by CSE_MarkJacobs on the DAOC subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/daoc/comments/1 ... u_uthgard/) a few years ago. After reading a number of his posts I'm convinced he's the real Mark Jacobs.

CSE_MarkJacobs wrote:That's great (both the devs support for Uthgard and your help with CU), I actually appreciate both. As someone who started their career in a similar manner to what the Uthgard/DoL devs did (I was mad at someone and said I'd create a better MUD), I can appreciate the time/toil it has taken all the devs to create the FS(s). I appreciate it even more since I'm independent again and don't have to answer questions from my boss(es) or investors about FS's impact on our revenue. :)

I wish them all the best and it might be fun one day to join in the revelry. OTOH, it's been so long since I last played Dark Age of Camelot, I'm sure someone will say "lrn2ply noob!" and that would be priceless.

Thanks again for the support there and please tell the devs it's great to see the FS doing well.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:21 pm

Rob wrote:We have a small clue about Mark Jacob's reasoning because of the following post by CSE_MarkJacobs on the DAOC subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/daoc/comments/1 ... u_uthgard/) a few years ago...

Doesn't Postcount.net know about this link you sent here?
I mean if they saw this then they can't say free shards are Illegal right?
Also someone on DAoC Genesis forum said that Broadsword doesn't own DAoC and is doing Dev/running it, EA still owns it.
Is this true?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:52 am

Gocoooo wrote:
Rob wrote:We have a small clue about Mark Jacob's reasoning because of the following post by CSE_MarkJacobs on the DAOC subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/daoc/comments/1 ... u_uthgard/) a few years ago...

Doesn't Postcount.net know about this link you sent here?
I mean if they saw this then they can't say free shards are Illegal right?

That comment by Mark Jacobs doesn't say anything about whether freeshards are illegal, and even if it did, it would simply be one man's opinion.

Only a judge can decide whether freeshards are illegal. Mark Jacobs isn't a judge.

A judge decided that freeshards are illegal in Blizzard vs. Reeves.

Would you please do me a favor? Click on the following link. You don't have to read it. Just look at it. It's the judge's order in Blizzard vs. Reeves. That order determined that those particular freeshards were illegal.

Judge's Order

Now please click the next link also. It's the reddit where Mark Jacobs posted his opinion.

Mark Jacob's comment on the original reddit

Do you see the difference between the judge's order and Mark Jacobs's opinion on a reddit? The judge's order determines the law. The reddit does not.

A judge's order is a very powerful thing. It has the power to put you in prison, to seize money from your bank account, to take children away from their parents, to send a SWAT team armed with rifles into your house, and ... drumroll ... to determine whether freeshards are illegal.

Mark Jacobs's comment on a reddit has no power of that kind.

Incidentally, Jacobs was describing his experience when he worked at Mythic. That was before Blizzard vs. Reeves. Back in those days, there was no case law on this question. Nobody knew how judges would rule in cases of this kind because no judge had done so yet. Today, because of Blizzard vs. Reeves, the law is different.

Throughout this post, I've been talking only about US law.

Gocoooo wrote:Also someone on DAoC Genesis forum said that Broadsword doesn't own DAoC and is doing Dev/running it, EA still owns it.
Is this true?

Yep, that's true.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:57 am

Rob wrote:A judge decided that freeshards are illegal in Blizzard vs. Reeves.


TY so much for all this info. So basically DAoC Freeshards are Illegal
And the people that run them and the people that play them Probably nothing wont happen to them?
Or do you think it could? Because Postcount.net knows I play Free Shards DAoC
Should I stop playing those Free Shards DAoC ones? I don't want to stop playing them.
This is sad that I might have to stop playing them
Oh how long have the Free Shards DAoC been around?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:08 am

Gocoooo wrote:TY so much for all this info. So basically DAoC Freeshards are Illegal

Yep, that's right. More exactly, in the United States, based on that single precedent, which is a weak precedent for the reasons I mentioned, but which is the only precedent we have, yes, freeshards are illegal.

Gocoooo wrote:And the people that run them and the people that play them Probably nothing wont happen to them?

My opinion is that nothing will happen to them. That's just my opinion.

Gocoooo wrote:Should I stop playing those Free Shards DAoC ones? I don't want to stop playing them.

I don't think you need to worry about this.

Gocoooo wrote:Oh how long have the Free Shards DAoC been around?

According to the DOL website, the DOL project started in 2003. I don't know if they had servers up in that year or only started to create their software.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:00 am

Rob wrote:Yep, that's right...

TY so much for all this info.
What about Postcount.net knowing I play Free shards. Do you think they will do anything about this?
Because I did send them the link of http://www.dolserver.net/
In an email. But not sure if I should of done that.
What do you think Postcount.net could do?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:24 am

Gocoooo wrote:TY so much for all this info.

You're welcome.

Gocoooo wrote:What about Postcount.net knowing I play Free shards. Do you think they will do anything about this?

They won't do anything about that. You're safe. You don't need to worry.

Almost every DAOC player has logged onto freeshards at one time or another. That includes the people at Postcount, the people at Broadsword, and everybody you meet in the game. Including me.

Postcount and Broadsword can't do anything to these people because there are too many. If they banned all these people, there would be almost nobody left on Postcount or Ywain.

Gocoooo wrote:Because I did send them the link of http://www.dolserver.net/
In an email. But not sure if I should of done that.
What do you think Postcount.net could do?

They won't do anything about your email. If you post that link on Postcount -- post, not email -- Postcount will erase the post. If you keep posting it over and over maybe they will ban you from Postcount. But other than that, they won't do anything. They won't do anything about your email.

There's a guy named Etaew who used to post on Postcount a lot. Maybe he still does. He was a senior developer at Dawn of Light. He helped create the freeshards. Everybody knew who he was. Nobody at Postcount did anything.

You're safe. Really, you don't need to worry.
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