Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Dark Age of Camelot in general.

Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:46 am

Rob wrote:...You're safe. Really, you don't need to worry.

ok TY so much
I was so worried lol
I posted the some the things on DAoC Genesis of what you said and on Doleserver.
But I didn't give them your name or this website
I hope that was ok to do
If not I can get rid of them if you like
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:58 am

Gocoooo wrote:I was so worried lol

I know, I should have realized sooner how worried you were. I would have just explained why you don't need to worry. :)

Gocoooo wrote:I posted the some the things on DAoC Genesis of what you said and on Doleserver.
But I didn't give them your name or this website
I hope that was ok to do
If not I can get rid of them if you like

That's fine. You could have posted the website and link if you wanted to.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:15 am

Rob wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:I was so worried lol

I know, I should have realized sooner how worried you were. I would have just explained why you don't need to worry. :)

Gocoooo wrote:I posted the some the things on DAoC Genesis of what you said and on Doleserver.
But I didn't give them your name or this website
I hope that was ok to do
If not I can get rid of them if you like

That's fine. You could have posted the website and link if you wanted to.


Oh ok so maybe others could actually read everything on here lol


Ok this is my email I sent to them:
On 2015-04-17 14:38, Xxxxxxxx wrote:
> SENT: Friday, April 17, 2015 at 8:10 AM
> FROM: feedback@postcount.net
> TO: "Gocoo - PostCount.Net" <xxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
> SUBJECT: Re: PostCount.Net Contact Us Form - Sorry
> Hi Gocoo,
>
> Freeshards are an illegally operated version of DAoC and against the
> ToS
> for the game and because we want the developers to post here, we
> enforce
> some of their rules here also. This includes not allowing the sale
> plat,
> and freeshards, and others.
>
> Keeping the boards free of these brings and keeps the devs posting,
> which people prefer than posting about a random server on random
> occasions. The devs read and listen, and that is better than allowing
> a
> post on a freeshard.
>
> As to your ban, you pushed, advocated and promoted freeshards, just
> didn't link them directly. You linked a DAoC video and told people to
> go
> to the link in the comments, a freeshard link. This is promoting and
> advocating. Usually we perma people who are only here to promote or
> spam
> the boards with an agenda, but I gave you a break and only set it for
> a
> month. After that time has passed, you are welcome back, but if you
> continue to promote and advocate for freeshards, or anything else
> that
> breaks the Postcount.net ToS, you will be perma banned.
>
> Please read our ToS here:
>
> http://www.postcount.net/forum/misc.php?do=showrules [1]
>
> Thank you,
> - Management.
>
> OK
> So will any of my post come back? Or are they gone?
> if they are gone can i send the link of the video i had up before?
>
> On 2015-04-16 21:28, Gocoo - PostCount.Net wrote:
> > The following message was sent to you via the PostCount.Net Contact
> Us
> > form by Gocoo ( mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxx.com ).
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > ok I understand about the free shards but I didn't mention it in
> > anything at all in the post I said was read my comment in the video
> I
> > posted. Yes there are free shard links but I never mention free
> > shards. Also I see sometimes swearing in some the post and things
> like
> > that but those people don't get banned. I'm just wondering why you
> > allow other things and not free shard?
> > And what is wrong with talking about free shard as long it has to
> do
> > with DAoC ? Its not like another game I'm mentioning. Sorry I know
> > there your rules but sometimes rules can be overboard.
> > I mean yes if its other games being mention then I would suggest
> maybe
> > banned them for free shards. But can you please tell me what's
> wrong
> > with mentioning free shards on here?
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > Referring Page:
> >
> > User Name: Gocoo
> > User ID: xxxxxx
> > Email: xxxxxx@xxxxxx.com
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.postcount.net/forum/misc.php?do=showrules
And here is the other email I sent
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 11:43 AM
From: feedback@postcount.net
To: "Xxxxx Xxxxxx" <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: PostCount.Net Contact Us Form - Sorry

Hi Gocoo,

No they won't come back as they broke the rules, and no you cannot
repost the video in the manner you were doing.

Thanks







Where do you get the information that Freeshards of DAoC are Illegal?

The coding they have is open sorce so anyone can use.

I'm not sure if you know about this

http://www.dolserver.net/

So show me where DAoC is illlegal for free shards


And they haven't sent anything back
Also why do they have an IP address by the email?
I took it off when I posted it here
Last edited by Gocoooo on Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:26 am

Seems to me that the person at Postcount told you in a friendly, polite way that they have a rule against "pushing, advocating, and promoting" freeshards.

They think you were breaking that rule. That's why they banned you for a month.

He (she?) also told you why they have the rule: because they think if they didn't have the rule, Broadsword employees wouldn't post there.

There's no point in arguing with them. It's their website and they make the rules for their website. The rules are whatever they say they are.

If you don't like their rules, don't post there.

Personally, I don't like their rules so I stopped reading their site or posting on it. I can't change their rules but I can decide not to go there.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:32 am

Rob wrote:Seems to me that the person at Postcount told you in a friendly, polite way that they have a rule against "pushing, advocating, and promoting" freeshards.

They think you were breaking that rule. That's why they banned you for a month.

He (she?) also told you why they have the rule: because they think if they didn't have the rule, Broadsword employees wouldn't post there.

There's no point in arguing with them. It's their website and they make the rules for their website. The rules are whatever they say they are.


Oh ok
Also why do they have an IP address by the email?
I took it off when I posted it here
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:36 am

Gocoooo wrote:Also why do they have an IP address by the email?

Was it a real email or did you send it with a form on their website? If it was on their website, their web server knew your IP address and recorded it.

Whenever you look at a web page, the server knows your IP address, because the server needs your IP address to send the web page to you.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:39 am

Rob wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:Also why do they have an IP address by the email?

Was it a real email or did you send it with a form on their website? If it was on their website, their web server knew your IP address and recorded it.

Whenever you look at a web page, the server knows your IP address, because the server needs your IP address to send the web page to you.


Oh ok
Should I remove my name from the email here I sent you what they said?
Or the whole thing from here of the email they sent to me?

Or just leave it the way it is?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:46 am

Gocoooo wrote:Should I remove my name from the email here I sent you what they said?
Or the whole thing from here of the email they sent to me?

Or just leave it the way it is?

I changed it for you. I X'd out the things that identified you.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:50 am

Rob wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:Should I remove my name from the email here I sent you what they said?
Or the whole thing from here of the email they sent to me?

Or just leave it the way it is?

I changed it for you. I X'd out the things that identified you.



Ok cool.
TY for doing that for me
Also do you think they will email me back with what I said in the email I sent back to them?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:39 am

Gocoooo wrote:TY for doing that for me

You're welcome.

Gocoooo wrote:Also do you think they will email me back with what I said in the email I sent back to them?

My guess is that he (she?) won't because you were starting to argue with him a little bit, and the guy was probably running out of patience, but he seems like a very nice guy so maybe he'll surprise me.

In any case, you know the answer to your question now, right?

The reason why DAOC freeshards are probably illegal is that a US district court judge said that similar freeshards servers are illegal.

The fact that DOL software is open source has nothing to with whether DOL freeshards are legal.

By the way, only DOL's server software is open source; the required client software (DAOC Portal which modifies game.dll) is not.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:50 pm

Rob wrote:In any case, you know the answer to your question now, right?

The reason why DAOC freeshards are probably illegal is that a US district court judge said that similar freeshards are illegal...


Oh ok
Well I'm glad I have nothing to worry about.
Do you think I should try to get more people on these free shard DAoC's?
Or don't bother with it?
If I do send links out to people come and play on Free Shards DAoC. Do you think EA would get mad at me for doing that?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:07 pm

Gocoooo wrote: Do you think I should try to get more people on these free shard DAoC's?

That's up to you. If you think it will be fun, sure, why not? I don't know what will be fun for you.

Maybe you should volunteer to be part of Dawn of Light.

Gocoooo wrote:If I do send links out to people come and play on Free Shards DAoC.

Send them how? To who?

Do you think EA would get mad at me for doing that?

I don't think anybody at EA will know or care.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:01 pm

Rob wrote:Send them how? To who?

Like on YouTube? Or showing people the link

I think I did it right under the one that's saying about the links?
I'm not sure how to do each section like you do lol
Sorry if its not right
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:09 pm

Gocoooo wrote:I think I did it right under the one that's saying about the links?
I'm not sure how to do each section like you do lol
Sorry if its not right

It's okay, I fixed it.

Oh, are you asking if EA will get mad at you for something you posted in this forum?

No. EA as a company doesn't care, and I don't think anybody who works there knows that this forum exists.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:21 pm

Rob wrote:Oh, are you asking if EA will get mad at you for something you posted in this forum?

No. EA as a company doesn't care, and I don't think anybody who works there knows that this forum exists.

Oh ok
So if people from DAoC Genesis wants to read this entire conversation we had about if DAoC Free Shards are Illegal or not. How can they read it without making an account if they don't want to make an account here?
Because I just figured I spammed post after post on DAoC Genesis lol about this and I shouldn't of
They did merge it there. Not sure if you saw what I posted. But the other website I posted it on Dol. Someone took everything off of it what I posted from here and they said if I post things like here again then I will get banned
I mean about the DAoC Free Shards being Illegal. Maybe I should of gave both websites this link so they could of read it lol instead of me copying and pasting on websites lol
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:18 am

Gocoooo wrote:So if people from DAoC Genesis wants to read this entire conversation we had about if DAoC Free Shards are Illegal or not. How can they read it without making an account if they don't want to make an account here?

They don't need an account to read. Anybody can read. They only need an account to post.

Gocoooo wrote:Maybe I should of gave both websites this link so they could of read it lol instead of me copying and pasting on websites lol

Yep, you could have done that. :)
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:57 am

TY so much for everything you said about this.
Also I was wondering if you still play DAoC ever?
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Rob » Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:29 am

Gocoooo wrote:Also I was wondering if you still play DAoC ever?

No, I stopped playing a while ago.

When did you start playing DAOC?
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Gocoooo » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:06 pm

Rob wrote:
Gocoooo wrote:Also I was wondering if you still play DAoC ever?

No, I stopped playing a while ago.

When did you start playing DAOC?




I played DAoC back in 2001 but not release date
And I have the boxes still of classic and the Expansions except Darkness Rising
and
Labyrinth of the Minotaur. But I did buy them off of
Mythic Entertainment's website at the time
I stopped playing DAoC when EA signed with Mythic Entertainment
This is the Free Shard server I play on its called Brotherland-Final
Here is the link If anyone like to play on it:
http://www.dolserver.net/daocportal/server.php?s=409
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby jamesw71 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:16 pm

It is not criminalized but greedy executives have been able to sue and win against people who run Freeshards. It all comes down to their licensing claims. They claim ownership and that the freeshards infringe on their rights. Yet no court or legislature apparently seems to care anything about the players rights. We apparently have none.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Warriorperson » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:33 pm

It's the company's intellectual property, not the public's. They have the legal rights to profit from their work, and to prevent others from doing so. Same reason you can't use Mickey Mouse in your advertising without permission from Disney. Intellectual property rights are pretty fundamental to organized society.

You as the player have rights, but they don't get to infringe upon the rights of others, including the game developers rights to profit from their work.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Krusty » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:45 pm

jamesw71 wrote: greedy executives

So if somebody steals something from you, you won't go to the police and complain, because that would be "greedy." Right?

jamesw71 wrote:It all comes down to their licensing claims.

No, it all comes down to copyright. The reason they are in a position to grant or withhold a license is because they own the copyright.

jamesw71 wrote:They claim ownership

When you make something, you own it. That's not a claim. That's a fact in every country on earth. It's called copyright.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Saragorn » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:07 am

Yes DOL has been around for quite sometime and known by Mythic yet they did nothing. There been servers up as far back as 2005, if not earlier.

While game has changed control since then and EA maybe more inline with Blizzard in attitudes but the following from a old post from dol site that gives you an indication of how Mythic had felt in early days of DOL (for those that may not know Sanya Thomas was the one who did their grab bags and thus the public spoke person for company):
"2. Mythic does know about us. I have spoken to Sanya Thomas personally and she doesn't care as long as we dont mess with their servers... as far as the staff also... they dont care."

The project is very careful about that as well as keeping it free and no modification of the game client as these are the things that would push the project into more clear cut copyright infringement and where game owners would have a problem.

If a game company wanted to be sticklers and go after DOL and the runners of shards (it is runners rather than the players in same manner that sharing an mp3 is copyright infringement but not so much those that download it) they have a likelihood of winning but unlikely would they bother when the freeshards are free because those servers are not cutting into their profits or hurting the game they are providing.

The # of players on freeshards are low and most of those players are there because they decided that they still have interest in the game (mostly old version since most popular is the classic server Uthgard) enjoy game enough to play but just not enough to shell out money for it so it not really taking away from their players or they do play live as well but play something like Uthgard for nostalgia so while it could be considered a copyright infringement in letter of the law but not so much in the spirit of it and they unlikely to benefit really to be worth the hassle.

Copyrights are to protect creators of content from others using that content without their permission, typically with regards to effect on profits, and DAoC shards do little to nothing to hurt profits and whether it constitutes infringement tends to depend on whether copyright owner feel a server/project is making money or somehow hurting their profits. If use of copyrighted material makes you money, then that is a pretty clear claim, but other situations, like playing a true freeshard, gets a tad more hazy.

Blizzard and some of their players seems to take a pretty hard line against them, while Mythic, at least, had a different attitude so just because it is against a court ruled in a particular instance that running of particular private server(s) was a copyright infringement, doesn't necessarily follow that DAoC freeshards are. The DOL project created the server source code from scratch so not "stealing" anything there, Mythic/EA/Broadsword's copyright is on the client. Since DOL shards do not copy (yes it be copied to memory but unlike the blizzard case, it be copied in memory in same manner as normal running of client), alter, or distribute the client and can be freely downloaded from the copyright owner's website, so question is the client being used in a manner that is outside of permitted use by the copyright owner. Mythic/EA/Broadsword has kind of given an unofficial go ahead to DOL project so while they could change their minds as was not official and attitudes can change, I highly doubt they do anything against the DOL project, the majority of freeshards, or players but they may go after servers that attempt to make money (this be likely be by micro transactions rather than subscriptions).

I imagine money being made is one of reasons Blizzard filed the particular lawsuit as would say it was a profitable server(s) to warrant a 88 milllion judgement.

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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Saragorn » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:06 am

Krusty wrote:
jamesw71 wrote: greedy executives

So if somebody steals something from you, you won't go to the police and complain, because that would be "greedy." Right?

jamesw71 wrote:It all comes down to their licensing claims.

No, it all comes down to copyright. The reason they are in a position to grant or withhold a license is because they own the copyright.

jamesw71 wrote:They claim ownership

When you make something, you own it. That's not a claim. That's a fact in every country on earth. It's called copyright.


Where is the stealing here? Let us say you designed a physical game that required a specific adapter to get power to your game, would you say someone stole something if another person made you an adapter that would work with your game? It might be if he copied the design of the adapter, but if the original design that just met the same voltage/amp requirements, then no yet that is essentially what is case here with free shards. A game was designed that requires a particular server to run it, and someone else provided the server instead of the original provider of the game and server. With physical products, once you buy it (as oppose to renting) you can do what the heck you want with it other than make copies and sell them but we have this slippery slope started with regards to digital and more ephemeral products where you don't ever own and giving the owner (often a business rather than the actual artists) undue amount of say on what you can and cannot do with that content.

I work in the computer industry where my paycheck is actually somewhat tied to this sort of thing and I still don't like it and think it is right. Many software vendors are moving to software as a service type of models.
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Re: Are the DAoC Freeshards Illegal?

Postby Krusty » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:49 pm

Saragorn wrote:no modification of the game client as these are the things that would push the project into more clear cut copyright infringement

Last time I logged into a DOL server, the copy of game.dll that I used no longer worked with Electronic Arts servers. If DOL didn't modify game.dll then why did that happen?

What do DMM files do? They don't modify the client?

Saragorn wrote: (yes it be copied to memory but unlike the blizzard case, it be copied in memory in same manner as normal running of client),

The judge's reasoning in the Blizzard case does apply to DOL and DAOC. His reasoning had nothing to do with normal or abnormal running. It had to do with whether running of certain parts of the client was authorized by the copyright owner.

The judge's idea (which I will state in terms of DOL and Electronic Arts because it applies perfectly to them) is that Electronic Arts constructs the client in such a way that people cannot load into memory the parts of it that display the game world unless they pay a subscription fee to EA.

But DOL allows people to load into memory those parts of the client without paying a subscription fee to EA.

Therefore DOL is in violation of copyright law.

This so plainly applies to DOL that the only way to deny it is to pretend that the judge said something different from what he actually said.

In case anybody wants to see what the judge said, here's his order. See section III. B. 3.

Judge's order in Blizzard v. Reeves (see III. B. 3.)

Saragorn wrote:Where is the stealing here?

To see the stealing, let's imagine that Blizzard, one of the top game companies in the world, made a server emulator like DOL did. Just as law firms take pro bono clients without thought of profit, Blizzard paid for this imaginary project but gave it away free without making money from it.

I'm using Blizzard in this thought experiment not because it's for profit. I'm using it because it's extremely competent. They make superb software.

Let's imagine that Blizzard assigned 30 of its top programmers to do exactly what DOL did, create a free emulator of Mythic's server software, except better and more complete. Let's imagine that this software was made to Blizzard's high standards. It was an exact functional duplicate of Mythic's software. It emulated the entire game in every detail, not only a portion of it.

Let's imagine Blizzard gave this away free just like DOL does, along with a launcher, just like DOL does.

The point of this comparison is not that Blizzard is for profit. That's why I say "free." The point of this comparison is that Blizzard would have done a better, more complete job than DOL.

Blizzard would not only have done a better job than DOL, it would have done a better job than Mythic. Blizzard was much more competent than Mythic.

Blizzard's free DAOC would have been better than Mythic's.

In short, let's imagine that 30 of the most competent game programmers in the world did exactly what DOL did, except better and more completely.

What would the effect have been?

The effect would have been that Mythic's DAOC would have gone out of business almost overnight. Mythic would have had to lay off most of its employees.

Does that show you why this kind of thing, in principle, is stealing?

You may say, "But the thief doesn't get any revenues, so how can it be stealing?"

It's stealing because revenues are taken from the owner. They are given to the customers. This thief is like Robin Hood.

DOL had an effect of this kind but to a lesser degree because its software wasn't good enough or complete enough to attract large numbers of customers away from Mythic. The only difference between the thought experiment above and DOL in real life is that DOL is lower quality and emulates only part of the game. Therefore it attracts fewer of EA's customers and it damages EA less. Because the effect is smaller, it's harder to see and of less concern to the copyright owner. But it's the same effect and the law applies in both cases.
Last edited by Krusty on Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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